1
00:00:13,71 --> 00:00:17,86
So about thirty five years ago
I got a call one day from

2
00:00:17,90 --> 00:00:21,62
a fellow named Jeremy Stone
and he said Dennis I've got

3
00:00:21,63 --> 00:00:25,75
a guy here I really want you to meet He's
he's an environmentalist but he's one of

4
00:00:25,76 --> 00:00:30,76
the smartest people I've ever met and
it sort of processing this he's an

5
00:00:30,77 --> 00:00:37,41
environmentalist but he's smart comment and
from Germany that was really something

6
00:00:37,42 --> 00:00:41,13
of a compliment a fairly
high bar for those of you of

7
00:00:41,14 --> 00:00:45,56
a certain age he was I have Stone's son
so he spent his youth at dinner with the

8
00:00:45,57 --> 00:00:50,55
leading leftist intellectuals of the
Western Hemisphere and he was then the

9
00:00:50,56 --> 00:00:54,27
executive director of something called the
Federation of American scientists that

10
00:00:54,28 --> 00:00:58,28
had ninety percent of the Nobel Prize
winners from the United States on its

11
00:00:58,29 --> 00:01:03,29
advisory board so my expectations in
coming over to meet Phil warbird were

12
00:01:03,51 --> 00:01:07,98
relatively high and I walked into the room
and there's this guy sitting there looks

13
00:01:07,99 --> 00:01:13,24
like he's about twelve years old
it's disconcerting but we got into

14
00:01:13,25 --> 00:01:15,91
a conversation and in fact he presented

15
00:01:16,42 --> 00:01:21,29
a wealth of knowledge presented sort of
humbly and then talk strategically about

16
00:01:21,30 --> 00:01:24,38
a series of things that were really important
to me he was then working for Senator

17
00:01:24,39 --> 00:01:28,89
Percy on energy policy I had just. Taken

18
00:01:28,90 --> 00:01:35,43
a role in the Carter administration
and energy policy and he was. Well

19
00:01:35,87 --> 00:01:41,04
those were the days when we had Republicans
like John Lindsay the Ruckelshaus

20
00:01:41,45 --> 00:01:45,72
evidence Chuck Percy I mean they were
very very different from the kinds of

21
00:01:45,97 --> 00:01:52,17
polarized politics that we have today. And
with guidance from Phil Percy emerged as

22
00:01:52,41 --> 00:01:55,78
on either side of the aisle one of the
true energy leaders among other things he

23
00:01:55,79 --> 00:01:59,69
found at the Alliance to Save Energy which
is still arguably dominantly the top

24
00:01:59,70 --> 00:02:05,00
lobbying group on industrial and commercial
energy savings in the country and sort

25
00:02:05,01 --> 00:02:11,74
of from that beginning of kind of
being odd by. Somebody who I was

26
00:02:11,75 --> 00:02:17,30
already at the age that I was clearly capable
of having been his father. This guy's

27
00:02:17,31 --> 00:02:19,17
career sort of bounced around in

28
00:02:19,18 --> 00:02:25,43
a myriad of directions he went on to get
his law degree from Harvard. Which is the

29
00:02:25,44 --> 00:02:29,03
first indication that maybe he wasn't
quite as smart as Germany thought he was.

30
00:02:30,48 --> 00:02:31,52
Went off to become

31
00:02:31,53 --> 00:02:38,18
a war correspondent in the Middle East. Ran
the largest environmental organization

32
00:02:38,27 --> 00:02:40,05
in Israel did

33
00:02:40,06 --> 00:02:44,89
a number of projects in Jordan and didn't
Gaza was deeply involved in human rights

34
00:02:44,93 --> 00:02:51,24
issues and after things got particularly
hairy over there came back in and took on

35
00:02:51,79 --> 00:02:56,43
the difficult job of running the Conservation
Law Foundation in New England which

36
00:02:56,44 --> 00:03:00,58
is among regional environmental groups
in the United States the premier

37
00:03:00,59 --> 00:03:05,16
organization it's among the the other
region we don't have anything quite like it

38
00:03:05,17 --> 00:03:09,73
here you have the northwest Energy Coalition
which does an energy regionally what

39
00:03:09,74 --> 00:03:10,19
C.L.F.

40
00:03:10,20 --> 00:03:16,21
Does on energy and toxics and wilderness
and roads and what have you and just

41
00:03:16,22 --> 00:03:20,53
a super group run that for many years got
deeply involved in the Cape Wind Project

42
00:03:20,54 --> 00:03:24,02
which everybody here mostly thinks of in
terms of the park prosy of the Kennedy

43
00:03:24,03 --> 00:03:28,35
family but it's was another one of these
deep things he's been involved in nuclear

44
00:03:28,36 --> 00:03:33,21
issues it's how he cut his teeth on energy
and in Issue after issue after issue war

45
00:03:33,22 --> 00:03:38,08
and peace human rights the environment
sustainability clean energy bill has brought

46
00:03:38,12 --> 00:03:44,73
that same incisive intellect that he displayed
that very first meeting. Thirty five

47
00:03:44,74 --> 00:03:48,47
years ago so when I found out that he was
writing the book on wind I told him that

48
00:03:48,48 --> 00:03:51,58
I'd love to do anything that I could to
promote it because I knew it would have

49
00:03:51,99 --> 00:03:56,20
a message that would be beautifully crafted
and persuasive and he's now completed

50
00:03:56,21 --> 00:04:03,04
the book he was here delighted to introduce
him to the work thanks I want to

51
00:04:03,09 --> 00:04:06,14
talk about wind power tonight as

52
00:04:06,34 --> 00:04:10,99
a way to address three of the most critical
issues that we face in America today

53
00:04:11,70 --> 00:04:16,04
one of them is our lagging
economy when power is

54
00:04:16,08 --> 00:04:20,86
a gateway to lots of American jobs and
I'll come back to describe some of those

55
00:04:20,87 --> 00:04:26,12
jobs as we move through this discussion
but they're well paying jobs and they're

56
00:04:26,13 --> 00:04:32,31
often jobs in remote areas where
employment is especially hard to come by.

57
00:04:34,51 --> 00:04:41,22
The second issue is energy independence
we get forty five percent of our oil

58
00:04:41,23 --> 00:04:46,86
today from foreign sources the good news
is that's down from sixty percent which

59
00:04:46,87 --> 00:04:50,93
was the percentage in two thousand
and five the bad news is that still

60
00:04:50,94 --> 00:04:52,66
a staggering dependence upon

61
00:04:52,67 --> 00:04:58,92
a foreign energy resource and wind power
can help us move away from that dependence

62
00:04:58,93 --> 00:05:01,59
upon foreign energy
resources and I'll talk

63
00:05:01,60 --> 00:05:06,59
a little bit about how that's the case.
And the third issue that wind power helps

64
00:05:06,60 --> 00:05:12,93
us address is climate change I think of
climate change as the Lord Voldemort of

65
00:05:13,52 --> 00:05:19,54
environmental issues in Washington it's
the issue that can't be named because the

66
00:05:19,58 --> 00:05:25,02
fossil and nuclear fuel lobby is so powerful
in scaring Congress people away from

67
00:05:25,06 --> 00:05:29,09
even beginning to talk about climate
change and what we might do about it on

68
00:05:29,10 --> 00:05:34,67
a national level but it's an issue
that we can't afford to ignore global

69
00:05:34,68 --> 00:05:41,49
temperatures are rising sea levels are
rising oceans are acidifying storm activity

70
00:05:41,50 --> 00:05:46,85
is increasing and intensifying much sure
what it will take to wake up the nation

71
00:05:46,86 --> 00:05:53,15
and more particularly our nations. A
sensible leaders to how important how

72
00:05:53,72 --> 00:06:00,20
crucial this issue issue is to address.
Wind power can help us begin to move in the

73
00:06:00,21 --> 00:06:05,14
right direction on that
issue as well so how big

74
00:06:05,15 --> 00:06:11,75
a role can we expect wind power to
play as we move toward the future

75
00:06:12,34 --> 00:06:16,39
Well the National Renewable Energy
Laboratory the successor to the Solar Energy

76
00:06:16,40 --> 00:06:22,97
Research Institute produced this map
showing the different levels of

77
00:06:23,49 --> 00:06:24,23
wind that is

78
00:06:24,24 --> 00:06:28,76
a that are available across the nation
as you can see from the purple area

79
00:06:28,77 --> 00:06:33,46
stretching down from the Dakotas in the
north on through Texas in the south that is

80
00:06:33,47 --> 00:06:38,90
our area of greatest wind resources however
we have super abundant wind resources

81
00:06:38,91 --> 00:06:44,16
across much of the nation so much so that
the National Renewable Energy Laboratory

82
00:06:44,43 --> 00:06:50,50
estimates we could be getting ten times
our current total power needs from wind

83
00:06:50,84 --> 00:06:57,37
from land based sources alone and from.
Abundant wind areas alone if you

84
00:06:57,38 --> 00:07:01,59
throw offshore wind resources into the
mix that multiplier goes up to about

85
00:07:01,60 --> 00:07:06,76
fourteen times our current power supply I
have to be careful when I throw out those

86
00:07:06,77 --> 00:07:08,59
numbers in Chicago I made

87
00:07:08,60 --> 00:07:13,92
a similar statement and I was quoted as
you can see saying author Philip Warburg

88
00:07:13,93 --> 00:07:19,34
says America can increase electric power
ten times with wind. Needless to say as an

89
00:07:19,35 --> 00:07:23,46
environmentalist my goal in life is not to
get America to increase its total power

90
00:07:23,47 --> 00:07:29,38
used by ten times or in fact at all but
it's to say that we can really turn to wind

91
00:07:29,39 --> 00:07:29,53
as

92
00:07:29,54 --> 00:07:35,00
a very significant power provider much more
so than we are today even though we're

93
00:07:35,01 --> 00:07:35,28
making

94
00:07:35,29 --> 00:07:41,46
a good start today so what can we expect
to talk about what the overall potential

95
00:07:41,47 --> 00:07:44,94
is but what can we expect in the next
few decades if we were really to commit

96
00:07:44,95 --> 00:07:47,29
ourselves to developing wind power as

97
00:07:47,30 --> 00:07:53,86
a resource. The Department of Energy
under George Bush interestingly in two

98
00:07:53,87 --> 00:07:55,30
thousand and eight came out with

99
00:07:55,31 --> 00:08:01,63
a study called wind power in America twenty
percent by two thousand and thirty and

100
00:08:02,18 --> 00:08:07,37
that study is its title suggests
charts out a course to get us to be

101
00:08:07,41 --> 00:08:12,05
a fifth relying upon win for our power needs
by two thousand and thirty within two

102
00:08:12,06 --> 00:08:16,70
decades the National Renewable Energy
Laboratory more recently has come out with

103
00:08:16,71 --> 00:08:23,56
a renewable electricity future study and
that study projects that wind and solar

104
00:08:23,60 --> 00:08:29,31
alone using technology that is commercially
available today could be providing half

105
00:08:29,32 --> 00:08:33,81
of our total power needs by the middle of
this century so we're not talking about

106
00:08:33,82 --> 00:08:38,69
some exotic hypothetical energy resource
that we could tap some day we're talking

107
00:08:38,70 --> 00:08:42,98
about a resource that is at hand
and that could really be making

108
00:08:42,99 --> 00:08:47,99
a huge dent in our fossil fuel emissions
and our reliance upon nuclear energy.

109
00:08:50,27 --> 00:08:57,03
Our use of wind power is by no means no new
Going back to colonial times we use the

110
00:08:57,04 --> 00:09:03,86
wind to saw wood to grind grain
to pump water and in fact

111
00:09:04,14 --> 00:09:09,87
water pumping windmills like this one
were used to open up vast stretches of

112
00:09:09,88 --> 00:09:14,07
farmland and ranch land across the Midwest
in the West in the late nineteenth

113
00:09:14,08 --> 00:09:20,95
century hundreds of thousands of these
were were used at that time and. We often

114
00:09:20,96 --> 00:09:25,25
think about the railroads as opening up the
West which is in part true but I think

115
00:09:25,26 --> 00:09:30,18
we under rate the very very important
role that wind power in fact played in

116
00:09:30,19 --> 00:09:36,27
opening up the west we've also used wind
power for quite some time to generate

117
00:09:36,33 --> 00:09:40,81
electricity not abundant amounts
of electricity This is called

118
00:09:40,82 --> 00:09:47,78
a wind charger and it was used quite widely
on farmsteads across the country in the

119
00:09:47,79 --> 00:09:50,27
twenty's thirty's and
even into the forty's

120
00:09:50,28 --> 00:09:55,23
a bit in areas that had not yet been reached
by world after for cation as you can

121
00:09:55,24 --> 00:10:01,08
tell by the design and by the twelve volt
battery at the bottom we're not exactly

122
00:10:01,09 --> 00:10:04,70
talking about a huge power
supply but it was enough to get

123
00:10:04,71 --> 00:10:09,04
a trickle of electricity into these
households to light some light bulbs and.

124
00:10:09,93 --> 00:10:15,95
Perhaps more significantly to open up the
radio airwaves to farmers and ranchers

125
00:10:16,22 --> 00:10:21,96
who until that point had been isolated
from that twentieth century communications

126
00:10:22,01 --> 00:10:26,17
medium the anecdotal use
of wind power to keep

127
00:10:26,18 --> 00:10:32,24
a few farmsteads lit and connected to the
world was obviously no match for the very

128
00:10:32,25 --> 00:10:38,08
large scale wind projects that developed
in the twenty's thirty's forty's fifty's

129
00:10:38,09 --> 00:10:41,92
in the United States hydro dams like the
Hoover Dam I actually just visited the

130
00:10:41,93 --> 00:10:47,51
Hoover Dam for the first time last week.
Huge coal plants oil plants and the like

131
00:10:47,78 --> 00:10:54,50
generating lots of electricity seemingly
without grave side effects we've only

132
00:10:54,51 --> 00:10:59,89
come more recently to realize just how
misguided our over reliance on those

133
00:10:59,90 --> 00:11:03,06
technologies are I'm not talking about
hydro I'm talking about the coal and the.

134
00:11:04,85 --> 00:11:09,48
And the oil and in fact what happened
in the one nine hundred fifty S.

135
00:11:09,49 --> 00:11:13,06
Was in many ways more disturbing and
that was we had a technology that was

136
00:11:13,07 --> 00:11:20,07
a war technology that utterly
devastated Nagasaki and Hiroshima and

137
00:11:20,08 --> 00:11:20,41
there was

138
00:11:20,42 --> 00:11:27,32
a feverish attempt to come up with some way
to create uses for the peaceful atom so

139
00:11:27,33 --> 00:11:32,12
we began to generate nuclear power vastly
subsidized by the federal government

140
00:11:32,13 --> 00:11:33,75
through research and
development and through

141
00:11:33,76 --> 00:11:39,67
a liability cap on nuclear accidents that
without which nuclear power would never

142
00:11:39,68 --> 00:11:46,05
have gone anywhere and all of this really
pushed renewable energy to the side

143
00:11:46,46 --> 00:11:48,59
until the one nine hundred seventy S.

144
00:11:48,59 --> 00:11:54,54
. Two events really happened or two phenomenon
really happened during the one nine

145
00:11:54,55 --> 00:11:56,76
hundred seventy S. The first
which we've talked about

146
00:11:57,49 --> 00:11:59,72
a little bit was Earth Day
one nine hundred seventy S.

147
00:11:59,73 --> 00:12:06,67
You may recognize the person in this
photograph is in this room. And the growth in

148
00:12:06,68 --> 00:12:10,65
environmental awareness and the sense that
well there might not be the free lunch

149
00:12:10,66 --> 00:12:15,09
that we thought there was in terms of burning
fossil fuels and relying upon nuclear

150
00:12:15,10 --> 00:12:20,81
power and then the second major event was
the Arab oil embargo of one nine hundred

151
00:12:20,82 --> 00:12:25,89
seventy three and at that point with gas
lines stretching around blocks and people

152
00:12:25,90 --> 00:12:31,03
becoming quite alarmed at the first
experience in their lifetimes most of them

153
00:12:31,04 --> 00:12:35,86
unless they lived through World War two of
energy shortage people began to say well

154
00:12:35,90 --> 00:12:40,14
you know we better really try to figure
out what to do about this and it was

155
00:12:40,15 --> 00:12:45,03
actually Richard Nixon who in one nine
hundred seventy four in the waning days of

156
00:12:45,04 --> 00:12:47,42
his presidency proclaimed

157
00:12:47,59 --> 00:12:54,52
a new initiative called Project Independence
Now this project independence was

158
00:12:54,53 --> 00:12:59,30
targeted at making America one hundred
percent independent of foreign energy

159
00:12:59,31 --> 00:13:05,28
resources by nine hundred eighty Needless
to say that target was far from met

160
00:13:05,96 --> 00:13:11,08
and he was really talking about developing
coal in the West opening up federal

161
00:13:11,09 --> 00:13:16,11
lands for drilling oil and gas that
might sound like the recent Republican

162
00:13:16,12 --> 00:13:22,49
candidate for the presidency. And
expediting nuclear power plant

163
00:13:22,50 --> 00:13:27,88
licensing solar was mentioned
very briefly and as

164
00:13:27,90 --> 00:13:32,87
a distant prospect and wind wasn't mentioned
at all but at least Nixon was waking

165
00:13:32,88 --> 00:13:35,06
up to the challenge of
how do we move toward

166
00:13:35,09 --> 00:13:42,08
a more energy independent America. It
was really Jimmy Carter who was the

167
00:13:42,09 --> 00:13:48,12
first president to put renewable energy
squarely on the national political agenda

168
00:13:48,51 --> 00:13:51,63
very early in his term he called for

169
00:13:51,67 --> 00:13:56,83
a an energy plan that would get us to
twenty percent rely reliance on renewable

170
00:13:56,84 --> 00:14:02,16
energy by the year two thousand Needless
to say we didn't meet that target but

171
00:14:02,32 --> 00:14:07,88
Carter was Ernest in no one would accuse
Carter of being anything but earnest he

172
00:14:07,89 --> 00:14:10,59
was earnest in trying to lay out

173
00:14:10,60 --> 00:14:17,16
a plan that just might get us there
and that plan included new laws that

174
00:14:17,94 --> 00:14:18,46
provide in

175
00:14:18,47 --> 00:14:24,58
a way for independent power producers
including producers of electricity from wind

176
00:14:24,59 --> 00:14:29,76
and solar and other renewable resources
to sell their power to electric utilities

177
00:14:29,77 --> 00:14:34,34
for the first time he also vastly expanded
the renewable energy research and

178
00:14:34,35 --> 00:14:40,80
development budget created the Solar Energy
Research Institute and promoted federal

179
00:14:40,81 --> 00:14:47,70
tax incentives for wind energy solar energy
and other renewable energy developers.

180
00:14:48,75 --> 00:14:53,63
Symbolically But importantly he installed
solar panels on the roof of the White

181
00:14:53,64 --> 00:14:55,12
House as

182
00:14:55,13 --> 00:15:02,15
a gesture in the right direction. Jimmy

183
00:15:02,16 --> 00:15:06,51
Carter's aspirations were were more impressive
than his mode of the letter delivery

184
00:15:06,52 --> 00:15:13,03
I can tell that at least some people
recognize this sweater. In February of one

185
00:15:13,04 --> 00:15:14,28
nine hundred seventy seven just

186
00:15:14,29 --> 00:15:19,03
a month after being elected he delivered
what has now become known as the sweater

187
00:15:19,04 --> 00:15:21,16
speech he sat beside

188
00:15:21,17 --> 00:15:27,40
a roaring fireplace in the White House
wearing this sweater and counseled America

189
00:15:27,82 --> 00:15:30,03
on how we could move to

190
00:15:30,04 --> 00:15:35,22
a brighter happier energy future
unfortunately his recipe was not exactly

191
00:15:35,23 --> 00:15:39,81
a winning one he proposed that we all
turn our thermostats down to sixty five

192
00:15:39,82 --> 00:15:42,08
degrees during the daytime and

193
00:15:42,09 --> 00:15:47,39
a bone chilling fifty five degrees at
night. The list to say this didn't go over

194
00:15:47,40 --> 00:15:54,16
terribly well but it showed his
seriousness in helping Americans

195
00:15:54,17 --> 00:15:57,81
begin to think about how we could achieve

196
00:15:57,87 --> 00:16:04,62
a level of comfort. Without relying
upon the fossil fuels that we had

197
00:16:04,63 --> 00:16:10,76
been so accustomed to relying upon
for so long then came Ronald Reagan.

198
00:16:13,18 --> 00:16:19,68
When he rode into town in one nine hundred
eighty one. He lacerated Carter for

199
00:16:19,69 --> 00:16:24,66
promoting what he called the sharing
of austerity he blamed him for our

200
00:16:24,70 --> 00:16:29,53
disintegrating economy and he
really returned America to

201
00:16:29,57 --> 00:16:35,19
a. Approach to energy development which
we've come to associate with Sarah Pailin

202
00:16:35,20 --> 00:16:42,03
a kind of drill baby drill mentality
and he pushed for the expedited

203
00:16:42,81 --> 00:16:47,38
extraction of gas and oil and coal he was

204
00:16:47,39 --> 00:16:51,09
a ardent promote proponent
of nuclear energy and in

205
00:16:51,10 --> 00:16:57,01
a kind of negative cynical symbolic gesture
he stripped the panels off of the White

206
00:16:57,02 --> 00:17:03,70
House roof. He also dismantled the
energy incentives that made it possible

207
00:17:03,88 --> 00:17:09,26
for wind energy solar energy and other
renewable technologies to begin to compete

208
00:17:09,30 --> 00:17:13,97
with fossil and nuclear fuels so predictably
by the mid one nine hundred eighty S.

209
00:17:14,60 --> 00:17:20,06
The wind movement went from boom to bust
there were was another significant factor

210
00:17:20,07 --> 00:17:25,87
there and that was the deregulation of
natural gas but Ronald Reagan really set

211
00:17:25,91 --> 00:17:31,48
a very negative tone and he backed that
tone by stripping away research and

212
00:17:31,49 --> 00:17:36,07
development funding for renewable
energy that is can tell you

213
00:17:36,11 --> 00:17:42,28
a lot about that. And really moved us
away from the kind of future that Jimmy

214
00:17:42,29 --> 00:17:47,88
Carter hoped we would be moving toward
thankfully wind power is back on track today

215
00:17:47,92 --> 00:17:53,05
during the first four years of the Obama
administration we double our reliance upon

216
00:17:53,06 --> 00:17:58,28
wind power we get about four percent of
our total power needs from wind today and

217
00:17:58,32 --> 00:18:02,63
that's enough to provide the power needs
for about thirteen million American

218
00:18:02,64 --> 00:18:07,70
households some states however are way ahead
of that curve South Dakota gets twenty

219
00:18:07,71 --> 00:18:12,00
two percent of its power from wind Iowa
generates about twenty percent of its power

220
00:18:12,01 --> 00:18:16,87
from wind even Texas which we think of as
the big oil state and which by the way is

221
00:18:16,88 --> 00:18:22,34
the largest power consumer in the country
despite not having the largest population

222
00:18:22,34 --> 00:18:27,56
. Gets about seven percent of its
power from wind that is an actually

223
00:18:27,64 --> 00:18:32,31
a staggering. Number to consider when you're
thinking about this technology is one

224
00:18:32,32 --> 00:18:37,07
that until a few years ago we really
haven't heard very much about we have

225
00:18:37,08 --> 00:18:42,18
a long way to go but we're definitely
heading in the right direction beyond

226
00:18:42,19 --> 00:18:45,98
generating a lot of power
a lot more could come but

227
00:18:46,03 --> 00:18:51,04
a lot of power wind power also creates
jobs and it creates jobs in the

228
00:18:51,05 --> 00:18:55,34
manufacturing sector for example about
seventy five thousand people are right now

229
00:18:55,35 --> 00:19:00,66
employed by the wind industry directly
or indirectly many of those are in the

230
00:19:00,67 --> 00:19:05,04
manufacturing sector and what has happened
in the manufacturing sector is actually

231
00:19:05,05 --> 00:19:09,42
quite interesting we've all been reading
in the press lots of coverage of how the

232
00:19:09,92 --> 00:19:14,57
Chinese are eating our renewable energy
lunch in the manufacture of renewable

233
00:19:14,58 --> 00:19:21,22
energy technology and that in fact is not
really the case with regard to when China

234
00:19:21,23 --> 00:19:27,28
is the largest producer of wind technology
but almost all of that technology is

235
00:19:27,29 --> 00:19:32,16
still used in China that's not true of its
solar technology ninety five percent of

236
00:19:32,17 --> 00:19:38,44
the panels that are produced in China are
exploited from China. But when turbans

237
00:19:38,49 --> 00:19:38,62
are

238
00:19:38,63 --> 00:19:46,16
a different story the average wind turbine
that is put up on American soil today about

239
00:19:46,22 --> 00:19:51,00
two thirds of its value is American made
and that percentage has gone up very

240
00:19:51,01 --> 00:19:53,69
significantly from five
years ago when about

241
00:19:53,70 --> 00:19:58,00
a third of the value of that turban was
American made so we're definitely heading

242
00:19:58,01 --> 00:20:04,96
in the right direction but beyond. Generating
jobs in the manufacturing sector and

243
00:20:04,97 --> 00:20:10,61
I should mention by the way that our overall
expectation for job creation by wind

244
00:20:10,62 --> 00:20:17,20
power. If we were to follow the. Two
thousand and eight plan put out by the

245
00:20:17,21 --> 00:20:20,77
Department of Energy would
get us beyond a quarter of

246
00:20:20,78 --> 00:20:26,14
a million jobs in the wind energy sector
as we approach that twenty thirty goal of

247
00:20:27,05 --> 00:20:27,47
producing

248
00:20:27,48 --> 00:20:33,91
a fifth of our power from wind by that date.
Jobs in the manufacturing sector jobs

249
00:20:33,92 --> 00:20:39,75
in construction of wind farms and jobs
in the operation and maintenance of wind

250
00:20:39,76 --> 00:20:46,30
farms. Again I can't see you but what
is the tallest ladder any of you have

251
00:20:46,31 --> 00:20:53,13
climbed twenty feet OK So when technicians

252
00:20:53,45 --> 00:20:57,48
on a daily basis and sometimes three
or four times a day have to climb

253
00:20:57,52 --> 00:21:02,31
a two hundred seventy foot ladder to get
to the mechanical operations room of

254
00:21:02,32 --> 00:21:06,46
a typical winter been some turbans
today have small elevators but

255
00:21:06,47 --> 00:21:08,78
a lot of them still do not so it takes

256
00:21:08,82 --> 00:21:15,56
a robust physique and frankly also someone
who's not averse to enclosed spaces

257
00:21:17,06 --> 00:21:21,96
I actually tried to climb the winter been
and I do not love enclosed spaces and I

258
00:21:22,00 --> 00:21:28,03
wouldn't exactly describe myself as robust
I made it to about seventy feet and then

259
00:21:28,04 --> 00:21:32,25
decided I probably had enough and I
was taken to this winter of and by

260
00:21:32,26 --> 00:21:34,35
a two time Iraqi veteran and I was

261
00:21:34,41 --> 00:21:39,39
a little afraid of the dressing down I was
going to get when I came down from my

262
00:21:39,56 --> 00:21:44,61
failed climb he was actually quite kind
to me and I related to him what my two

263
00:21:44,62 --> 00:21:47,30
daughters said to me when they
heard I was planning on climbing

264
00:21:47,31 --> 00:21:51,82
a winter been one of them said Well of
course you have to try to do it you're

265
00:21:51,83 --> 00:21:54,46
writing a book about
wind and the other who's

266
00:21:54,47 --> 00:22:00,21
a kind of kind gentle type said you've got
to be out of your mind you shouldn't do

267
00:22:00,22 --> 00:22:02,69
that they were both right in

268
00:22:02,70 --> 00:22:07,55
a way. I want to say

269
00:22:07,56 --> 00:22:14,54
a few words about my book Harvest The wind
its subtitle America's journey to jobs

270
00:22:14,62 --> 00:22:19,74
energy independence and climate stability
is the big picture story but there's

271
00:22:19,75 --> 00:22:22,33
another journey that this book
really involved in it was

272
00:22:22,34 --> 00:22:29,12
a personal journey that I took far from
my native New England and as Dennis

273
00:22:29,16 --> 00:22:33,71
alluded to the Cape Wind
offshore wind farm was

274
00:22:33,75 --> 00:22:38,76
a major challenge for me when I headed
up the Conservation Law Foundation New

275
00:22:38,77 --> 00:22:43,70
Englanders like to think of we like to
think of ourselves as. A light on to the

276
00:22:43,71 --> 00:22:48,85
nation so to speak you know environmentally
progressive and moving ahead of the

277
00:22:48,86 --> 00:22:55,55
curve and it frankly shocked me how
much resistance there was to the Cape

278
00:22:55,55 --> 00:22:58,14
Wind offshore wind farm now this is

279
00:22:58,16 --> 00:23:04,27
a wind farm whose closest landfall
is about five miles from the

280
00:23:04,55 --> 00:23:09,87
outermost turban and that would mean that
if you were to hold your arm it full

281
00:23:09,89 --> 00:23:14,13
arm's length the nearest turban would be
about the size of your thumbnail so we're

282
00:23:14,15 --> 00:23:19,02
not exactly talking about something that
is in your face yet that was too much of

283
00:23:19,02 --> 00:23:25,52
a visual insult for many well he'll do
England vacationers including sadly Ted

284
00:23:25,52 --> 00:23:27,84
Kennedy Ted Kennedy who was really

285
00:23:28,18 --> 00:23:33,15
a leader of pushing for the right kinds of
energy policies over several decades but

286
00:23:33,16 --> 00:23:37,73
when it came to the thought of looking at
an offshore wind farm from the Hyannis

287
00:23:37,74 --> 00:23:43,96
Port family compound some other set of
values kicked into play and he was.

288
00:23:45,75 --> 00:23:50,78
Very determined to stop this when wind farm
and actually worked behind closed doors

289
00:23:50,79 --> 00:23:56,09
in Congress as well as being public in his
opposition to this this wind farm it was

290
00:23:56,10 --> 00:24:01,84
really my frustration and
embarrassment frankly with our

291
00:24:02,46 --> 00:24:05,44
inability to move windpower forward
on a scale that could make

292
00:24:05,45 --> 00:24:10,93
a difference in New England that sent me
to far flung corners of the nation the red

293
00:24:10,94 --> 00:24:17,14
states and cloud County Kansas
was one of my first stops.

294
00:24:19,44 --> 00:24:25,07
Cloud County Kansas is located about one
hundred forty miles north of saliva and it

295
00:24:25,08 --> 00:24:25,31
is

296
00:24:25,32 --> 00:24:29,67
a very remote county it was settled in the
late one thousand nine hundred when the

297
00:24:29,81 --> 00:24:34,22
Kansas Pacific Railroad rolled through
its population peaked around one nine

298
00:24:34,23 --> 00:24:40,100
hundred ten and it's been in decline
ever since so much so that one

299
00:24:41,05 --> 00:24:47,63
local commentator observed it used to be
that you could commit suicide by laying

300
00:24:47,64 --> 00:24:49,38
down in the middle of Main Street on

301
00:24:49,39 --> 00:24:53,53
a Saturday the problem was you wouldn't die
until Monday because there were so few

302
00:24:53,54 --> 00:25:00,11
cars. The person who made that comment was
Kirk Lowell and he is the head of the

303
00:25:00,12 --> 00:25:06,89
cloud County Economic Development Agency
otherwise known as cloud Corp. And Kirk is

304
00:25:06,90 --> 00:25:11,22
an avid wind booster because he sees the
jobs that it brings the cloud County

305
00:25:11,51 --> 00:25:15,67
because he sees the economic development
that it brings he does not talk about

306
00:25:15,68 --> 00:25:20,55
climate change climate changes again that
taboo subject he does talk about energy

307
00:25:20,56 --> 00:25:26,33
independence he's seen many Kansans go off
to fight wars in the Middle East that he

308
00:25:26,34 --> 00:25:30,99
sees as being fought at least substantially
over our super dependence upon foreign

309
00:25:31,00 --> 00:25:37,98
energy resources and he wants
to see that the Cline. He again

310
00:25:38,09 --> 00:25:42,57
doesn't mince words and how he phrases
things what he said to me was either we'll

311
00:25:42,58 --> 00:25:46,96
have to put wind turbines on our Kansas
prairie or we'll have to continue burying

312
00:25:46,97 --> 00:25:52,32
our fine young men and women under it.
The Meridian way wind farm went into

313
00:25:52,33 --> 00:25:58,34
operation in December of two thousand and
eight and it has sixty seven turbans

314
00:25:58,35 --> 00:26:02,92
those sixty seven turbans generate enough
electricity for fifty five thousand

315
00:26:03,12 --> 00:26:07,18
Kansas and Missouri households about three
hundred jobs were created during the

316
00:26:07,19 --> 00:26:11,73
construction of this wind farm many of
them local and dozens of jobs are involved

317
00:26:11,74 --> 00:26:15,25
in the ongoing operation and
maintenance of the wind farm so it's

318
00:26:15,26 --> 00:26:21,65
a great economic boon to the the area
in terms of jobs but perhaps the most

319
00:26:21,66 --> 00:26:26,27
remarkable thing that happened in cloud
County took place at cloud County Community

320
00:26:26,28 --> 00:26:31,09
College cloud County Community College
in two thousand and seven made

321
00:26:31,10 --> 00:26:34,10
a strategic bet on wind it created

322
00:26:34,11 --> 00:26:38,97
a winning technology training program
and it appointed this man Bruce Graham

323
00:26:39,01 --> 00:26:44,82
a former high school science teacher to
head up the program at the time there were

324
00:26:44,86 --> 00:26:49,10
about five students who were interested
in the program so the college

325
00:26:49,11 --> 00:26:53,88
administrators leased out a little bit
of classroom space sandwiched between

326
00:26:53,89 --> 00:26:54,97
a pawn shop and

327
00:26:54,98 --> 00:27:00,40
a Chinese restaurant in the local shopping
mall and they set Bruce on his way well

328
00:27:00,44 --> 00:27:04,94
today there are over one hundred students
enrolled in this program and as you can

329
00:27:05,01 --> 00:27:09,58
see from this photograph they're not all
fresh scrub kids fresh off the farm

330
00:27:10,10 --> 00:27:16,55
they're former Army. Careerists
their school teachers

331
00:27:16,90 --> 00:27:22,04
their office administrators they're refugees
from the construction trades all eager

332
00:27:22,05 --> 00:27:26,18
to get in on the ground floor of an
exciting technology that they see as really

333
00:27:26,19 --> 00:27:30,84
paving our way to the twenty first century
but it's not just the jobs and the job

334
00:27:30,85 --> 00:27:36,29
training that have resulted from the
meridian way wind farm and cloud county's

335
00:27:36,30 --> 00:27:42,22
commitment to wind the farmers and the
ranchers are also very significant

336
00:27:42,23 --> 00:27:47,01
beneficiaries people like Kurt Corps and
his mother Helen I like to consider this

337
00:27:47,02 --> 00:27:53,91
photograph my tribute to Grant Woods
American Gothic. The corps have been farming

338
00:27:53,92 --> 00:27:59,12
and ranching and cloud County since the
eighteen eighties and they get tens of

339
00:27:59,13 --> 00:28:04,08
thousands of dollars in annual lease
payments from the wind developer there are

340
00:28:04,09 --> 00:28:08,56
dozens of other families like
them in cloud County and it's

341
00:28:08,57 --> 00:28:13,45
a great hedge in their view against the
ups and downs and cattle and grain prices

342
00:28:13,46 --> 00:28:17,95
and the uncertainties of Midwestern
weather you know we've all read about and

343
00:28:18,08 --> 00:28:24,09
perhaps experience the horrible drought of
this past summer the wind farm continues

344
00:28:24,10 --> 00:28:28,90
to generate power and continues to pay those
lease payments to farmers and ranchers

345
00:28:28,91 --> 00:28:33,46
like the corps Kurt has two sons who are
now in college and he's very hopeful that

346
00:28:33,47 --> 00:28:38,03
at least one of them will come back to run
the family farm and he feels that the

347
00:28:38,54 --> 00:28:43,89
the guaranteed annuity that the wind farm
developer pays over the next twenty five

348
00:28:43,90 --> 00:28:46,87
years and maybe beyond that will be

349
00:28:46,88 --> 00:28:53,25
a major draw to bring perhaps one perhaps
two of his sons back to the farm. I don't

350
00:28:53,26 --> 00:28:59,97
want to paint and unqualifiedly rosy picture
of how when power is received even in

351
00:28:59,98 --> 00:29:04,82
a place like Kansas I went to another part
of the state called the Flint Hills the

352
00:29:04,83 --> 00:29:05,83
Flint Hills is

353
00:29:05,84 --> 00:29:10,86
a stretch of tall grass Prarie covering
about eleven thousand square miles it's

354
00:29:10,87 --> 00:29:16,65
a very large area it's the last large
remaining stretch of untrammeled tall grass

355
00:29:16,73 --> 00:29:22,83
prairie and there are Kalman and cow women
who live in the Flint Hills who are dead

356
00:29:22,87 --> 00:29:28,02
set against seeing vertical wind towers
imposed upon their very hardest on toll

357
00:29:28,03 --> 00:29:32,31
horizon one of those opponents and
really one of the ringleaders is

358
00:29:32,32 --> 00:29:38,37
a woman named Rose bacon Rose actually
grew up in Iowa but she came to the Flint

359
00:29:38,38 --> 00:29:43,09
Hills when she was eleven years old with
her father to buy cattle and she fell in

360
00:29:43,10 --> 00:29:45,21
love with the place took

361
00:29:45,22 --> 00:29:48,27
a long time to get back there between
two years ago bought a farm on

362
00:29:48,28 --> 00:29:53,70
a ranch in the Flint Hills and together
with her husband Kent of Vietnam for war

363
00:29:53,71 --> 00:29:57,81
veteran set up a cattle operation
I should mention that can't has

364
00:29:57,82 --> 00:30:02,80
a prosthetic leg that is especially
bowed so they can actually sit on

365
00:30:02,81 --> 00:30:09,58
a horse and herd cattle there are devoted
to the ranching tradition and they are

366
00:30:10,12 --> 00:30:16,35
adamant opponents of wind power Rose puts
it in pretty unsparing terms when she

367
00:30:16,36 --> 00:30:18,47
talks about wind power she calls it

368
00:30:18,51 --> 00:30:24,66
a rape of the landscape somewhat more
temperate in his description of wind farms is

369
00:30:24,67 --> 00:30:26,93
Bill Browning Bill Browning
is the guy in the white T.

370
00:30:26,94 --> 00:30:30,89
Shirt on the left and he
is a physician as well as

371
00:30:30,90 --> 00:30:35,71
a multigenerational rancher and here's how
he describes what he thinks wind power

372
00:30:35,72 --> 00:30:40,53
would do to the Flint Hills. The beauty
of the Flint Hills for me is where the

373
00:30:40,54 --> 00:30:45,74
hills meet the sky morning and evening and
the shadows come across the hills and

374
00:30:45,75 --> 00:30:49,06
make all the contours stand
out if you're going to put

375
00:30:49,07 --> 00:30:54,93
a string of four hundred foot steel
behemoths across the horizon it's gone the

376
00:30:54,94 --> 00:30:59,93
loneliness the emptiness the absence of the
intrusions of people all that would be

377
00:30:59,94 --> 00:31:05,89
lost rose and Bill and the people who are
working with them to oppose wind power in

378
00:31:05,90 --> 00:31:10,80
the Flint Hills will never forgive Pete
feral for opening up his ranch to when

379
00:31:10,81 --> 00:31:11,76
development about

380
00:31:11,77 --> 00:31:18,56
a decade ago Pete decided that he felt
it was time to move beyond fossil fuels

381
00:31:18,63 --> 00:31:21,21
he also saw the economic
benefits of building

382
00:31:21,22 --> 00:31:27,10
a wind farm and he solicited when
developers to come to his ranch and develop

383
00:31:27,11 --> 00:31:29,79
a project at the time I don't think he had

384
00:31:29,80 --> 00:31:36,20
a clue how vehement the opposition was
going to be and once he pressed the head

385
00:31:36,81 --> 00:31:40,73
here's how he described what
the situation was we had T.V.

386
00:31:40,74 --> 00:31:46,11
Cameras in the court rooms we had people
pounding podiums and shaking their fists

387
00:31:46,48 --> 00:31:49,08
you think abortion is a hot
issue just trying to build

388
00:31:49,09 --> 00:31:55,75
a wind farm in the Flint Hills.
Pete really sees him self as

389
00:31:55,76 --> 00:32:02,01
helping wean America off of fossil fuels
Rose sees him as chasing after money.

390
00:32:03,15 --> 00:32:05,21
Pete in fact won the
battle in that there is

391
00:32:05,22 --> 00:32:11,14
a wind farm on his property the Elk River
wind farm but Rose won the war. Governor

392
00:32:11,15 --> 00:32:17,51
Sam Brownback last year declared through
executive order the creation of

393
00:32:17,52 --> 00:32:22,75
a tall grass heartland and that tall grass
heartland covering about eleven thousand

394
00:32:22,76 --> 00:32:29,46
square miles is now off bounds to future
when development to be sure wind power

395
00:32:29,47 --> 00:32:34,39
does have its downsides beyond the visuals
and we can debate the visuals I happen

396
00:32:34,40 --> 00:32:38,43
to think wind turbines are beautiful other
people think they're ugly. Leaving that

397
00:32:38,44 --> 00:32:44,53
aside there are some real environmental
issues pertaining to wind power. And

398
00:32:45,24 --> 00:32:49,59
some of those issues really derived
from the wind farms that were built in

399
00:32:49,60 --> 00:32:53,86
a very hurried somewhat slapdash manner
in the one nine hundred eighty S.

400
00:32:54,00 --> 00:32:58,08
When farms that looked like this one this
wind farm is just west of Palm Springs

401
00:32:58,09 --> 00:33:02,80
California and as you can see the wind
turbines are spaced very close to one

402
00:33:02,81 --> 00:33:07,89
another their blades sweep close to the
ground and though you can't tell from this

403
00:33:07,90 --> 00:33:09,57
picture they spin at

404
00:33:09,58 --> 00:33:14,39
a very rapid rate of thirty to forty
revolutions per minute wind farms like this

405
00:33:14,56 --> 00:33:15,69
have been responsible for

406
00:33:15,70 --> 00:33:21,33
a disturbing number of birds being killed
and in particular Raptors or predatory

407
00:33:21,34 --> 00:33:24,67
birds and in particular golden eagles at

408
00:33:25,65 --> 00:33:27,76
a few of these wind farms and

409
00:33:28,99 --> 00:33:35,48
a serious problem fortunately today. When
farms look very different and function

410
00:33:35,49 --> 00:33:39,59
very differently this again is Pete ferals
wind farm on his ranch and as you can

411
00:33:39,60 --> 00:33:44,22
see the turban stand much taller they're
much more generously spaced across the

412
00:33:44,23 --> 00:33:46,33
landscape and they actually spin at

413
00:33:46,34 --> 00:33:50,75
a much slower speed of about sixteen
revolutions per minute so birds can navigate

414
00:33:50,76 --> 00:33:54,76
their way between them can actually see the
turban plates spinning it doesn't mean

415
00:33:54,77 --> 00:33:56,50
that there's no risk to bird life there is

416
00:33:56,51 --> 00:34:01,18
a risk of bird life but smart sighting of
winter been so that they're not sighted

417
00:34:01,19 --> 00:34:05,07
in areas where there are endangered species
so that they're not sighted in major

418
00:34:05,15 --> 00:34:07,61
migratory flyways can make

419
00:34:07,62 --> 00:34:13,09
a big difference some wind farms are in
fact sighted in migratory areas and there

420
00:34:13,10 --> 00:34:13,18
is

421
00:34:13,19 --> 00:34:18,50
a wind farm in Bulgaria that has used an
interesting combination of human smarts and

422
00:34:18,51 --> 00:34:24,51
modern technology to minimize any
damage to bird life there's an onsite

423
00:34:24,52 --> 00:34:30,53
ornithologist at this wind farm day in
and day out and that ornithologist uses

424
00:34:30,57 --> 00:34:35,44
radar as well as visual sightings to
determine when the wind farm should be shut

425
00:34:35,45 --> 00:34:37,65
down and late in two thousand and ten

426
00:34:37,69 --> 00:34:43,96
a flock of thirty thousand white storks was
passing through the area he ordered the

427
00:34:43,97 --> 00:34:47,03
wind farm shut down thirty seven
times in two days and not

428
00:34:47,04 --> 00:34:52,38
a single White Stork was harmed so there
are ways to get smarter about how we.

429
00:34:53,49 --> 00:34:57,35
Manage this technology there are issues
with bats that I won't take the time to

430
00:34:57,36 --> 00:35:01,94
talk about right now but there are also
smart ways to minimize the damage to bats

431
00:35:01,95 --> 00:35:02,85
from wind farms

432
00:35:03,80 --> 00:35:08,93
a further challenge facing wind power is
well. You can generate it in Wyoming or

433
00:35:08,94 --> 00:35:14,44
South Dakota or North Dakota but how do you
get it to the population centers where

434
00:35:14,45 --> 00:35:19,52
it's really most needed and the answer is
you have to build transmission lines and

435
00:35:19,63 --> 00:35:23,32
before people get too alarmed about that
I just want to remind you that there are

436
00:35:23,33 --> 00:35:28,44
now two point four million miles of gas
pipelines in America and we're going to see

437
00:35:28,45 --> 00:35:33,24
that number increase very substantially
with the fracking boom that is now upon us

438
00:35:33,52 --> 00:35:36,31
so yes transmission is

439
00:35:36,35 --> 00:35:40,85
a challenge facing wind power
as we begin to develop it on

440
00:35:40,86 --> 00:35:43,66
a very substantial scale but there is

441
00:35:43,67 --> 00:35:49,19
a market for this technology. Renewable
portfolio standards in places like

442
00:35:49,20 --> 00:35:52,98
California by the way California has the
most ambitious standard in the country

443
00:35:52,99 --> 00:35:58,76
which is that it will be thirty three
percent reliant on renewable resources for

444
00:35:58,77 --> 00:36:03,21
its power supply by twenty twenty which is

445
00:36:03,25 --> 00:36:06,81
a pretty remarkable goal I want to tell
you about this guy before I get to the

446
00:36:06,82 --> 00:36:10,15
other challenge of this
is Bob Whitman and he is

447
00:36:10,16 --> 00:36:16,90
a Wyoming rancher and he has created an
association It's called the the Renewable

448
00:36:16,91 --> 00:36:23,42
Energy Alliance of landowners or real and
this alliance of landowners has assembled

449
00:36:23,46 --> 00:36:28,58
parcels of land totaling about eight hundred
thousand acres and they are marketing

450
00:36:28,66 --> 00:36:33,75
this acreage to various Win developers and
the challenge will be again to get the

451
00:36:33,76 --> 00:36:39,13
wind from those ranch is down into the
Las Vegas area and on into southern

452
00:36:39,14 --> 00:36:44,79
California but it's an interesting approach
to be proactive in going after when

453
00:36:44,80 --> 00:36:49,40
developers rather than when developers
actually coming to individual landowners and

454
00:36:49,41 --> 00:36:53,57
cutting separate deals with the landowners
he's very proud of the fact that he and

455
00:36:53,58 --> 00:37:00,34
his fellow real members are taking the
challenge upon themselves to line up when

456
00:37:00,35 --> 00:37:05,21
development that can benefit them as well
as our renewable energy economy the other

457
00:37:05,22 --> 00:37:10,38
important piece of the puzzle in terms
of. Transmission and how you manage wind

458
00:37:10,39 --> 00:37:15,09
power is how do you deal with the fact that
the wind doesn't always blow same thing

459
00:37:15,10 --> 00:37:19,31
with solar energy you have abundant energy
during the daytime you have none at

460
00:37:19,32 --> 00:37:23,73
night with wind the pattern is somewhat
different but you've got to be able to

461
00:37:23,74 --> 00:37:24,36
manage

462
00:37:24,40 --> 00:37:29,24
a smart grid you can't simply rely upon the
kind of dumb grid that we've been using

463
00:37:29,25 --> 00:37:31,17
for the past several
decades where you turn on

464
00:37:31,18 --> 00:37:34,69
a coal plant or turn on nuclear plant
and it operates until the day you

465
00:37:34,70 --> 00:37:38,81
decommission it when power
is variable Well there's

466
00:37:38,82 --> 00:37:42,32
a good news side side of the story
and that is if we were to develop

467
00:37:42,36 --> 00:37:48,00
a network of millions of electric
vehicles we would be providing

468
00:37:48,01 --> 00:37:54,09
a storage resource for wind generated power
most of us don't drive more if we drive

469
00:37:54,10 --> 00:37:56,51
at all and in Seattle I'm happy
to see that it looks like

470
00:37:56,52 --> 00:38:01,81
a lot of people actually don't drive but
those of us who do drive probably don't

471
00:38:01,82 --> 00:38:05,03
drive more than a half hour an hour
hour and a half maybe two hours

472
00:38:05,04 --> 00:38:07,18
a day so that means that
there are twenty two hours

473
00:38:07,19 --> 00:38:13,16
a day where you could be plugging in your
vehicle and having your local utility

474
00:38:13,34 --> 00:38:18,61
determine when to charge that fecal and
in fact when to very carefully draw power

475
00:38:18,62 --> 00:38:25,37
off of that vehicle to even out the bumps
in the wind generated power this is

476
00:38:25,41 --> 00:38:28,68
not high in the sky this can
happen we're developing

477
00:38:28,69 --> 00:38:34,42
a smart grid on various levels various
appliances can be managed in this way.

478
00:38:35,59 --> 00:38:39,31
I met with the head of the Federal Energy
Regulatory Commission and he talked about

479
00:38:39,35 --> 00:38:43,65
a refrigerator as not a single
unit but as multiple units there's

480
00:38:43,66 --> 00:38:48,15
a de Frost unit there's a cooling
unit there's an ice maker there is

481
00:38:48,19 --> 00:38:53,59
a there are other units I forgot which
they are and he said basically you don't

482
00:38:53,60 --> 00:38:58,84
care when each of those different units is
operating what you want is to know that

483
00:38:58,85 --> 00:39:03,37
your beer is going to be cold when you want
it and that you've got ice and the same

484
00:39:03,38 --> 00:39:03,71
thing with

485
00:39:03,72 --> 00:39:08,36
a car as long as you can get in the car
in the morning and started up and. Go to

486
00:39:08,37 --> 00:39:11,19
work do whatever you need
to do it can provide

487
00:39:11,20 --> 00:39:17,39
a wonderfully flexible battery resource
that can get us off of foreign oil because

488
00:39:17,68 --> 00:39:21,20
this is the linkage to energy independence
often people think well what are you

489
00:39:21,21 --> 00:39:25,18
talking about oil and you're talking about
wind power I don't get it because we

490
00:39:25,19 --> 00:39:30,38
don't generate that much power from oil
these days well if we were to switch over

491
00:39:30,39 --> 00:39:34,88
a substantial portion of our car fleet to
electricity then we would be serving that

492
00:39:34,89 --> 00:39:38,10
purpose of getting us off
of foreign oil at least to

493
00:39:38,11 --> 00:39:42,27
a substantial degree while creating the
kind of storage resource that could really

494
00:39:42,31 --> 00:39:42,75
benefit

495
00:39:42,79 --> 00:39:47,68
a renewable energy economy when we think
about wind power we can't think about it

496
00:39:47,72 --> 00:39:47,83
in

497
00:39:47,84 --> 00:39:54,26
a vacuum I often say wind power isn't clean
energy it's cleaner energy every energy

498
00:39:54,30 --> 00:40:00,60
production technology creates some
environmental harm so the question is what is

499
00:40:00,61 --> 00:40:04,74
the lesser evil and what is the greater
evil and what wind power will allow us to

500
00:40:04,75 --> 00:40:10,31
do is move away from our dependence upon
more harmful forms of energy production

501
00:40:10,32 --> 00:40:13,97
electricity production one of those
obviously being nuclear I had

502
00:40:13,98 --> 00:40:19,36
a professor in graduate school who taught
me statistics and I don't remember much

503
00:40:19,37 --> 00:40:25,67
about the course but I do remember his
mantra which was rare events do happen and

504
00:40:25,68 --> 00:40:30,02
we've seen unfortunately with the Fukushima
disaster with the true noble disaster

505
00:40:30,41 --> 00:40:37,07
that these kinds of rare events actually
do happen and they cause havoc to hundreds

506
00:40:37,08 --> 00:40:43,62
of thousands of people they create
devastated landscapes for decades and in

507
00:40:43,63 --> 00:40:45,66
addition nuclear power is

508
00:40:45,70 --> 00:40:52,61
a. Technology that does not have all
the pieces in place yet the other

509
00:40:52,62 --> 00:40:55,99
day I was trying to find the Yucca
Mountain reserve in Nevada it's

510
00:40:56,00 --> 00:40:57,73
a hidden preserve down

511
00:40:57,74 --> 00:41:04,69
a long dusty road there is no
acceptable long term means of nuclear

512
00:41:04,70 --> 00:41:11,29
waste storage and disposal today and if
you read the news about what is happening

513
00:41:11,30 --> 00:41:16,80
in Iran the slippery slope between
civilian uses of nuclear power and weapons

514
00:41:16,81 --> 00:41:18,31
production is

515
00:41:18,32 --> 00:41:23,07
a very precarious one and may well lead us
into the next major regional war in the

516
00:41:23,35 --> 00:41:30,10
in the middle east wind power also lets
us move off of coal to get coal you

517
00:41:30,11 --> 00:41:34,46
create mines like this open pit mines in
the West or mountaintop removal mines in

518
00:41:34,47 --> 00:41:40,31
the east terrible damage to the environment
but beyond the damage caused by mining

519
00:41:41,21 --> 00:41:46,63
the burning of coal obviously creates huge
problems for human health and even huge

520
00:41:46,64 --> 00:41:50,33
or problems for the global environment
in terms of the greenhouse gas emissions

521
00:41:50,34 --> 00:41:55,43
that are going to compromise our children's
and our grandchildren's livelihoods and

522
00:41:55,49 --> 00:42:00,24
wellbeing so when power is
not a panacea but it is

523
00:42:00,25 --> 00:42:05,02
a very promising technology it's a
technology that is known today we worked out

524
00:42:05,03 --> 00:42:09,61
a lot of the kinks in the technology what
we need is really the political will to

525
00:42:09,62 --> 00:42:13,34
move it forward on a scale
that can really help us create

526
00:42:13,35 --> 00:42:19,98
a more sustainable energy future
that's what I'd like to say. I

527
00:42:19,99 --> 00:42:26,87
mean could you put some dollars
to some of these farms and

528
00:42:26,88 --> 00:42:32,26
stuff like for example the gentleman in
that area where the wind power is generally

529
00:42:32,27 --> 00:42:38,18
unpopular who went ahead and installed some
when things how much money does he get

530
00:42:38,23 --> 00:42:43,68
per acre say for his cattle or wheat or
whether he does there versus how much he

531
00:42:43,69 --> 00:42:48,94
can get for the turban it's a huge difference
on the average when turban takes up

532
00:42:48,98 --> 00:42:49,64
a quarter to

533
00:42:49,65 --> 00:42:55,88
a half of an acre and. The cannot be
used for anything else so if you have

534
00:42:55,92 --> 00:42:58,24
a two thousand acre farm and

535
00:42:58,25 --> 00:43:02,41
a lot of these farms are very big you're
talking about and you have four to eight

536
00:43:02,42 --> 00:43:05,51
turbans on your property
you're talking about taking

537
00:43:05,62 --> 00:43:12,59
a couple of acres out of production negligible
and the equivalent if you're raising

538
00:43:12,60 --> 00:43:16,02
cattle on that land or growing wheat on
that land you're probably getting in the

539
00:43:16,03 --> 00:43:20,33
hundreds of dollars So if you're getting
eight thousand dollars per turban which is

540
00:43:20,34 --> 00:43:24,33
a typical price that you would be get you'd
be getting per year for leasing your

541
00:43:24,34 --> 00:43:25,66
land it's

542
00:43:25,67 --> 00:43:29,99
a very real advantage and you also get
paid for the access roads to the turbans.

543
00:43:31,01 --> 00:43:35,10
The core family which
I. Portrayed here has

544
00:43:35,11 --> 00:43:39,21
a transformer station on their property
all together they actually get very close

545
00:43:39,22 --> 00:43:44,68
to one hundred thousand dollars for their
lease payments they also get and by the

546
00:43:44,69 --> 00:43:49,71
way they don't talk about it was a secret
agreement so I I'm surmising but that's

547
00:43:49,72 --> 00:43:53,47
a responsible guess they also get

548
00:43:53,55 --> 00:43:59,79
a royalty per kilowatt
hour produced. So they get

549
00:43:59,97 --> 00:44:01,99
substantial payments and it can make

550
00:44:02,00 --> 00:44:05,98
a big difference to people out
there working hard to make

551
00:44:05,99 --> 00:44:09,96
a living would you think those parts of the
country that are now agricultural that

552
00:44:09,97 --> 00:44:15,74
they're running out of water could. Just
become wind farmers instead of Well I

553
00:44:15,75 --> 00:44:18,77
think one of the things that's appealing
about wind power is actually it's not an

554
00:44:18,82 --> 00:44:24,67
either or choice you can continue to farm
you can continue to ranch because you're

555
00:44:24,68 --> 00:44:29,65
basically taking almost no land out of
production you can farm your crops right

556
00:44:29,66 --> 00:44:34,53
around the Winter been and let your cattle
graze right around the winter and the if

557
00:44:34,54 --> 00:44:39,02
the water becomes so short that you can't
do any of those normal right farming kind

558
00:44:39,03 --> 00:44:45,91
of things could you still. To come when
farmers Short Absolutely and in arid parts

559
00:44:45,92 --> 00:44:48,48
of the country solar energy becomes

560
00:44:48,49 --> 00:44:52,30
a very viable option where you actually
can't really can't grow anything lot of the

561
00:44:52,32 --> 00:44:53,64
areas I'm showing have

562
00:44:53,65 --> 00:44:58,05
a reasonable amount of water so that's not
been such an issue and cattle are not

563
00:44:58,09 --> 00:45:02,42
terribly water intensive so in the ranch
lands I was showing you again I don't

564
00:45:02,43 --> 00:45:02,69
think it's

565
00:45:02,69 --> 00:45:09,66
a trade off. Who owns the
grids the electrical

566
00:45:09,67 --> 00:45:15,20
grids I know in Germany some people got
together and purchased the grids and it was

567
00:45:15,21 --> 00:45:17,33
kind of a co-op thing and I in fact know

568
00:45:17,34 --> 00:45:21,82
a person that lives here in Seattle where
that's what they did what what do we need

569
00:45:21,83 --> 00:45:27,69
to do here in America so that we can make
those grids available to people who want

570
00:45:27,70 --> 00:45:31,60
to put up the wind farms because it seems
like in North Dakota for example it's

571
00:45:31,61 --> 00:45:37,13
very difficult to get wind.
Electricity on those grits right.

572
00:45:38,77 --> 00:45:44,47
Grids are often owned by individual
utilities they are there are some merchants

573
00:45:44,65 --> 00:45:49,40
developers of new transmission lines so for
example coming out of Wyoming there are

574
00:45:49,41 --> 00:45:52,67
some private developers who are
banking on when they're lining up

575
00:45:52,68 --> 00:45:56,74
a certain number of wind farms and on
that basis they'll build new transmission

576
00:45:56,75 --> 00:46:03,22
carders that are. When dedicated you could
say going down into again Las Vegas and

577
00:46:03,23 --> 00:46:08,98
over into California one of the challenges
we face with our grid in America is that

578
00:46:09,02 --> 00:46:14,93
it really grew from the ground up that
is to say first it was local now it's

579
00:46:14,94 --> 00:46:18,62
essentially dominated by
states and we don't have

580
00:46:18,66 --> 00:46:21,90
a very coherent federal framework
for the development of

581
00:46:21,91 --> 00:46:28,49
a transmission grid and we have various
associations that try to. Make the grid

582
00:46:28,50 --> 00:46:34,53
more coherent but federal policy is much
weaker in developing transmission carders

583
00:46:34,54 --> 00:46:38,95
than it is in for example developing gas
pipelines the Federal Energy Regulatory

584
00:46:38,96 --> 00:46:44,52
Authority controls the siting of gas
pipelines it does not control the siting of

585
00:46:45,23 --> 00:46:50,84
transmission lines so people are working
to create more coherent multi-state

586
00:46:52,26 --> 00:46:55,12
what are called balancing authorities
so that you can actually create

587
00:46:55,13 --> 00:46:58,43
a better integrated grid but it is

588
00:46:59,10 --> 00:47:05,58
a situation where. The regulatory
framework is rushing to catch up with the

589
00:47:05,59 --> 00:47:12,28
technological reality. Hi
Phil Nancy Hersh with the

590
00:47:12,29 --> 00:47:17,10
Northwest Energy Coalition again I want
to thank you for coming to Seattle and.

591
00:47:18,26 --> 00:47:23,27
Telling really wonderful stories about
the people you met and the issues you've

592
00:47:23,28 --> 00:47:26,37
dealt with it really creates you know

593
00:47:26,38 --> 00:47:29,70
a nice picture for folks
to be able to think about

594
00:47:29,71 --> 00:47:35,54
a technical issue in real terms I want to
make two comments some one question if I

595
00:47:35,55 --> 00:47:40,47
could sneak into comments one on your
comment about electric vehicles in the

596
00:47:40,48 --> 00:47:41,77
Pacific Northwest we've had

597
00:47:41,78 --> 00:47:47,89
a pilot project where we're using water
heaters to store electricity just like you

598
00:47:47,90 --> 00:47:52,11
would use the electric battery to
store electricity well they can put

599
00:47:52,12 --> 00:47:54,89
a monitor on your water heater
and raise the temperature just

600
00:47:54,90 --> 00:47:56,65
a little and lower the temperature just

601
00:47:56,66 --> 00:48:01,88
a little and store excess electricity in
your water heater very successful scary

602
00:48:01,89 --> 00:48:06,22
interesting people don't know the difference
in their in the temperature of their

603
00:48:06,23 --> 00:48:12,01
water so it's again an affective use of
existing technology on the second common is

604
00:48:12,02 --> 00:48:18,60
about the intersection between
retiring coal plants and building new

605
00:48:18,61 --> 00:48:23,79
renewable energy projects and the
transmission lines so there are

606
00:48:23,80 --> 00:48:28,85
a lot of coal plants out kind of in
the rural areas and that's where

607
00:48:28,86 --> 00:48:34,54
a lot of wind resource and solar resources
are and so if we we may not need to

608
00:48:34,55 --> 00:48:39,99
build as much new transmission as we think
we might if we're retiring coal and

609
00:48:40,00 --> 00:48:44,63
putting wind on those existing power lines
so again it's something we're looking at

610
00:48:44,64 --> 00:48:50,55
in the West and trying to explore the
connection of those two two issues. And my

611
00:48:50,56 --> 00:48:56,09
question relates to mobilization and
politics so you said you visited

612
00:48:56,10 --> 00:49:00,31
a lot of the red states we
find in the northwest that

613
00:49:00,32 --> 00:49:05,79
a lot of our wind and renewable energy
resources is east of the mountains in areas

614
00:49:05,80 --> 00:49:12,00
a little less progressive than the Western
Washington western Oregon. And even

615
00:49:12,01 --> 00:49:16,14
though communities benefit from renewable
energy and have economic development

616
00:49:16,15 --> 00:49:21,73
opportunities mobilizing them to engage
in the policy debate to support broad

617
00:49:21,74 --> 00:49:22,54
statewide

618
00:49:22,55 --> 00:49:27,18
a regional policy or national policy in
support of Grenoble energy development is

619
00:49:27,19 --> 00:49:27,42
still

620
00:49:27,43 --> 00:49:33,09
a challenge and I'm wondering if you have
experiences where the folks in those kind

621
00:49:33,10 --> 00:49:39,06
of heartland states have turned the corner
to actually engage in the political

622
00:49:39,07 --> 00:49:45,29
debate kind of against their natural political
party leanings to promote renewable

623
00:49:45,30 --> 00:49:52,19
energy Thank you. First it's great
to hear the experimentation

624
00:49:52,20 --> 00:49:55,68
that's happening here with the
water heaters and there are

625
00:49:55,69 --> 00:50:00,21
a whole variety of ways you can store wind
generated electricity another way that

626
00:50:00,22 --> 00:50:04,90
is used out here that is more conventional
and less innovative is pumped storage

627
00:50:04,91 --> 00:50:11,06
you pump water into storage reservoirs and
then release that water. When you need

628
00:50:11,07 --> 00:50:16,34
to to even out the grid but that's that's
terrific. One of the interesting things I

629
00:50:16,35 --> 00:50:20,59
think about wind power is that it really
does cut across partisan lines and this is

630
00:50:20,60 --> 00:50:23,82
where I think Mitt Romney frankly
really missed the boat he came out very

631
00:50:23,83 --> 00:50:28,76
explicitly opposed to the extension of the
production tax credit for wind energy

632
00:50:29,03 --> 00:50:34,23
and many Republican members of Congress
and governors took him to task for that

633
00:50:34,29 --> 00:50:39,09
because they felt that he was not
representing the interest of core Republican

634
00:50:39,10 --> 00:50:41,53
constituencies so I I
don't think it's really

635
00:50:41,54 --> 00:50:45,00
a partisan issue and it has been used as

636
00:50:45,01 --> 00:50:49,69
a political football during the presidential
campaign but when you really look at

637
00:50:50,00 --> 00:50:54,51
district by district there are several
members of Congress in Kansas for example

638
00:50:54,91 --> 00:50:59,92
who have come out very explicitly in favor
of renewing the. Production Tax Credit.

639
00:51:01,10 --> 00:51:05,54
So I think there's hope in that regard there
obviously various third rails talking

640
00:51:05,55 --> 00:51:07,69
about a carbon tax or any kind of

641
00:51:07,70 --> 00:51:11,42
a carbon management regime is something
that you're not going to get people in

642
00:51:11,43 --> 00:51:15,22
those constituencies to really talk about
or engage but I think if you're just

643
00:51:15,23 --> 00:51:21,97
looking at wind and jobs and energy
independence good American issues apple

644
00:51:21,98 --> 00:51:27,70
pie that's fine and frankly my book was
written very explicitly to emphasize those

645
00:51:27,71 --> 00:51:28,98
pieces of the puzzle it's not

646
00:51:28,99 --> 00:51:33,49
a coincidence that climate stability comes
at the end of the list because I really

647
00:51:33,50 --> 00:51:38,10
wanted to talk about the kinds of issues
that can cross cut various constituencies

648
00:51:38,11 --> 00:51:44,98
in America. If wind
power continues to grow

649
00:51:45,27 --> 00:51:52,05
and looking at places that don't have
access to hydro is back up. How much

650
00:51:52,57 --> 00:51:57,92
fossil fuel generation will we need to
build to provide for reserves and who's

651
00:51:57,93 --> 00:52:04,22
going to pay for that. Well the reality
is we're not going to see fossil fuel use

652
00:52:04,28 --> 00:52:10,26
disappear in the coming decades natural gas
is very cheap today it will not remain

653
00:52:10,27 --> 00:52:16,49
that cheap I think we've seen the
fluctuations in natural gas prices over past

654
00:52:16,50 --> 00:52:21,62
years and decades my question more is in
terms of the fact that the wind power is

655
00:52:21,63 --> 00:52:28,36
not consistent and when it goes
down you've got to have something

656
00:52:28,37 --> 00:52:34,29
ready to go in and it's hard to power any
hydro you can do instantaneously pretty

657
00:52:34,30 --> 00:52:39,69
much but other things have to be at least
sort of humming along and unfortunately

658
00:52:39,70 --> 00:52:43,15
those other systems only
operate efficiently

659
00:52:43,16 --> 00:52:50,00
a high capacity full capacity so how are
we going to balance that out and who

660
00:52:50,01 --> 00:52:54,80
will will pay for that I mean we've got
an issue here with with wind producers

661
00:52:54,81 --> 00:52:59,97
sometimes wanting payment for me you can
sometimes have more than you can use and

662
00:53:00,15 --> 00:53:06,00
you can't store the energy and distance
does matter so it's not that easy to get

663
00:53:06,04 --> 00:53:09,49
things I mean we can definitely improve
but it's not that easy to get from that

664
00:53:09,50 --> 00:53:13,76
when Torrijos Likewise I think there
are various ways that we can create

665
00:53:13,77 --> 00:53:17,21
a smarter grid one of the
ways frankly is to create

666
00:53:17,22 --> 00:53:21,19
a larger more integrated
grid so that if you have

667
00:53:21,29 --> 00:53:25,60
a what's called the balancing area that
encompasses multiple states you might have

668
00:53:25,61 --> 00:53:29,48
a wind farm in the Columbia Gorge
that is not producing very much at

669
00:53:29,49 --> 00:53:32,83
a certain point in time but a wind
farm in Wyoming may be producing

670
00:53:32,84 --> 00:53:36,66
a huge amount of wind and if they're part
of the same general power network you're

671
00:53:36,67 --> 00:53:37,14
going to create

672
00:53:37,15 --> 00:53:41,91
a much more even flow of power across
that network I don't think there's

673
00:53:41,92 --> 00:53:47,83
a uniter unitary answer I think we've
gotten too used to simple technology fixes

674
00:53:47,84 --> 00:53:52,45
whether it's nuclear power or frack natural
gas or whatever it might be we have to

675
00:53:52,46 --> 00:53:52,76
create

676
00:53:52,77 --> 00:53:58,09
a more complex more sophisticated grid
that involves demand management so that

677
00:53:58,89 --> 00:54:03,68
whether it's water storage or refer to
operating commercial refrigerators or

678
00:54:03,69 --> 00:54:05,62
operating air conditioning units there are

679
00:54:05,63 --> 00:54:09,58
a whole variety of. Technologies
that we can control in

680
00:54:09,59 --> 00:54:13,52
a much more modulator way and that we
have the wherewithal to do so because of

681
00:54:13,53 --> 00:54:19,69
computer technology today. And that will
take an investment but it needs to happen

682
00:54:19,73 --> 00:54:23,63
Denmark is an interesting
example Denmark has

683
00:54:23,67 --> 00:54:29,42
a commission on climate change that
has come out with a roadmap to

684
00:54:29,46 --> 00:54:35,33
a non fossil fuel future by two thousand
and fifty and they expect that by two

685
00:54:35,34 --> 00:54:39,57
thousand and fifty they will be eighty
percent reliant upon wind power to generate

686
00:54:39,58 --> 00:54:42,10
their electricity and they'll do so to

687
00:54:42,11 --> 00:54:47,83
a substantial degree by drawing Norwegian
hydro power into their network when they

688
00:54:47,84 --> 00:54:49,24
need to higher power is

689
00:54:49,25 --> 00:54:52,85
a bad thing it works but it's the need
otherwise there's as I said there's no

690
00:54:52,86 --> 00:54:55,04
simple unitary solution I think it's

691
00:54:55,05 --> 00:54:59,61
a combination of various technologies various
management tools that we're going to

692
00:54:59,62 --> 00:55:04,48
need to use and we're going to be for
better or for worse using natural gas for

693
00:55:04,49 --> 00:55:05,55
decades to come to

694
00:55:05,56 --> 00:55:13,05
a certain degree and my
question is about transmission

695
00:55:13,06 --> 00:55:19,83
lines alternating current direct
current Is there some liquor way to do

696
00:55:19,84 --> 00:55:25,57
transformation. As solar
start with. Well directed.

697
00:55:26,66 --> 00:55:30,53
Directing those in there and I think
I think transmission is viewed as

698
00:55:30,54 --> 00:55:33,69
a bigger obstacle than it needs to be
some people talk about well there are

699
00:55:33,70 --> 00:55:40,38
enormous losses involved in transmitting
electricity over great distances. You can

700
00:55:40,59 --> 00:55:42,75
if you are transmitting electricity over

701
00:55:42,76 --> 00:55:46,61
a thousand miles you're probably losing
about five percent of the electricity over

702
00:55:46,62 --> 00:55:46,85
them

703
00:55:46,99 --> 00:55:52,67
a thousand miles and if you're generating
electricity basically for nothing in Wyoming

704
00:55:52,68 --> 00:55:58,56
because you don't pay for the wind then
it's not such a problem and you're getting

705
00:55:58,57 --> 00:56:01,94
a super abundant resource that
you're able to tap and you're losing

706
00:56:01,95 --> 00:56:06,17
a certain small percentage of it along the
way so it's five percent by two thousand

707
00:56:06,18 --> 00:56:12,34
miles roughly speaking yeah. Thank you
so much my name's Craig Zambrano and.

708
00:56:13,67 --> 00:56:18,17
I'm one of those people that is doing
penance in my current life because as

709
00:56:18,18 --> 00:56:23,61
a teenager I'm paid for college by
removing windmills in Minnesota.

710
00:56:26,06 --> 00:56:26,87
And how teaching

711
00:56:27,01 --> 00:56:30,86
a lot of courses dealing with energy and
renewable energy and climate change at the

712
00:56:30,87 --> 00:56:36,16
University of Washington I'm intrigued
about the North North Dakota and the box

713
00:56:36,17 --> 00:56:42,74
information and fracking at the same time
as underground above ground the potential

714
00:56:42,75 --> 00:56:48,56
there for I think pretty major wind development
do you know of any effort for that

715
00:56:48,65 --> 00:56:55,05
the people to really be talking to each
other about that. Tell me more what the

716
00:56:55,09 --> 00:57:00,12
wall I mean what more I mean in the one
hand that I see the fracking is is is

717
00:57:00,57 --> 00:57:02,97
a problem or developing
that really could have

718
00:57:02,98 --> 00:57:09,95
a very very long term negative implications
for groundwater contamination and and

719
00:57:09,96 --> 00:57:15,31
so forth but to get these same some of the
people to talk together see if they can

720
00:57:15,32 --> 00:57:21,39
find some things in common positive or or
as an area of conflict the twelve I think

721
00:57:21,40 --> 00:57:25,16
one thing that is going to happen with
wind power as compared to gas over the

722
00:57:25,17 --> 00:57:29,72
coming years is wind power is prices going
to come down because the technology is

723
00:57:29,73 --> 00:57:32,79
getting cheaper gas is going
to go up we're seeing a

724
00:57:33,02 --> 00:57:40,01
a heyday in cheap gas and. When I was
working for the Conservation Law Foundation

725
00:57:40,30 --> 00:57:41,41
we were concerned about

726
00:57:41,42 --> 00:57:45,94
a number of natural gas terminals that
were going to be built in New England to

727
00:57:45,95 --> 00:57:51,40
bring natural gas from abroad because we
were overconsuming right now those same

728
00:57:51,41 --> 00:57:56,21
terminals are being discussed for export
purposes once we begin to export natural

729
00:57:56,22 --> 00:58:01,79
gas that price is going to go up right
now natural gas in Asia is about.

730
00:58:03,01 --> 00:58:06,75
Ten times as expensive as it is in America
in Europe it's about six times the

731
00:58:06,76 --> 00:58:11,78
expense of that as it is in America. We're
enjoying this moment in time but I don't

732
00:58:11,79 --> 00:58:15,29
think it will go on for
very long. On board.

733
00:58:22,100 --> 00:58:28,73
Yes you have the one real competitor in
terms of price right now wind power is

734
00:58:28,74 --> 00:58:30,29
cheaper much cheaper than building

735
00:58:30,30 --> 00:58:35,44
a new coal plant especially with the
greenhouse gas regulations that the Obama

736
00:58:35,45 --> 00:58:39,35
administration has put into place on new
coal fired power plants it's much cheaper

737
00:58:39,36 --> 00:58:46,30
than new nuclear power new nuclear
power. The competitor is gas and gas

738
00:58:46,41 --> 00:58:50,25
right now is somewhat cheaper than wind and
that's why the production tax credit is

739
00:58:50,26 --> 00:58:51,64
so crucial because it levels

740
00:58:51,65 --> 00:58:57,64
a very uneven playing field Barack
Obama tried to strip away some of the

741
00:58:58,04 --> 00:59:05,03
enormous. Tax benefits to the oil and
gas industries. And was shot down by

742
00:59:05,04 --> 00:59:11,96
the Senate you know if we can't politically
reduce those subsidies then we have

743
00:59:11,97 --> 00:59:16,49
to be subsidizing the right technologies
from an environmental standpoint and again

744
00:59:16,50 --> 00:59:20,69
if we can't get to the point where
we can tax carbon emissions then

745
00:59:21,06 --> 00:59:22,38
a good surrogate is

746
00:59:22,39 --> 00:59:26,51
a production tax credit and various other
incentives for the wind industry in the

747
00:59:26,52 --> 00:59:32,85
solar industry he's OK you mean you
partly answered my question but I.

748
00:59:34,43 --> 00:59:40,13
If we were to look per kilowatt hour of
the cost of electricity and say we have

749
00:59:40,14 --> 00:59:46,27
a nuclear plant we have a coal plant we
have a natural gas plant and we have

750
00:59:46,28 --> 00:59:52,38
a wind farm. Getting rid of all the
subsidies and say this is the actual

751
00:59:52,50 --> 00:59:54,36
cost of producing

752
00:59:54,37 --> 00:59:59,47
a kilowatt hour and hydro electric which I
soon was the cheapest but if if you look

753
00:59:59,48 --> 01:00:05,25
at all the subsidies gone what's the
cheapest What are the price ratios well.

754
01:00:07,39 --> 01:00:11,65
I think you have to look at the full costs
of every energy technology and if you

755
01:00:11,66 --> 01:00:14,56
were to strip away the subsidies
you're still left with

756
01:00:14,57 --> 01:00:18,83
a situation where you're not having the
coal industry having the gas industry

757
01:00:18,84 --> 01:00:22,78
having the oil industry having the new
nuclear industry there the full cost

758
01:00:22,82 --> 01:00:28,66
environmental costs of the technology that
they're creating. We're not paying for

759
01:00:28,67 --> 01:00:33,57
carbon emissions we're not paying for the
enormous damage we're doing to the global

760
01:00:33,58 --> 01:00:39,49
environment through allowing our greenhouse
gas emissions to continue unabated and

761
01:00:39,53 --> 01:00:44,16
if we're not able politically to tax those
emissions it's very hard to say it's

762
01:00:44,17 --> 01:00:44,73
then it's not

763
01:00:44,74 --> 01:00:48,07
a level playing field simply removing
street subsidies is not creating

764
01:00:48,08 --> 01:00:54,36
a level playing field. I'm Joe
business when I want to start

765
01:00:54,37 --> 01:01:00,74
a factory and I want to buy electricity
OK and are in China or anywhere I am

766
01:01:01,52 --> 01:01:03,55
and I want to know how much is it cost me

767
01:01:03,69 --> 01:01:08,45
a kilowatt hour produces electricity forget
the car my question is forget all the

768
01:01:08,46 --> 01:01:13,69
other stuff because I just want to produce
electricity for my consumption and

769
01:01:13,70 --> 01:01:19,43
business well as I said the coal industry
right now is not building new power

770
01:01:19,44 --> 01:01:24,14
plants because it regards those power
plants as too expensive so wind is

771
01:01:24,15 --> 01:01:28,67
a winner risk with respect to coal the
nuclear industry has very very very few

772
01:01:28,68 --> 01:01:33,13
plants in the pipeline because it is so
expensive to build those plants and because

773
01:01:33,14 --> 01:01:35,46
they post to shame and particular
because people are all of

774
01:01:35,47 --> 01:01:41,24
a sudden saying maybe the safeguards we've
got aren't sufficient. Gas is the big

775
01:01:41,25 --> 01:01:45,64
question mark in that gas is very cheap
right now and we're producing it in very

776
01:01:45,65 --> 01:01:52,15
large quantities and without any subsidies
gas will win. I have to say there's

777
01:01:52,16 --> 01:01:54,15
a non-market factor that is

778
01:01:54,16 --> 01:01:58,76
a very important factor and that is the
fact that over that twenty nine states plus

779
01:01:58,77 --> 01:02:02,63
the District of Columbia have what are
called renewable portfolio standard which

780
01:02:02,64 --> 01:02:02,98
set

781
01:02:03,02 --> 01:02:09,20
a minimum amount of electricity that utilities
in those states have to get from renewable

782
01:02:09,21 --> 01:02:10,49
resources so that's

783
01:02:10,50 --> 01:02:16,11
a significant driver as well in moving
people toward renewable energy and I think

784
01:02:16,12 --> 01:02:16,22
it's

785
01:02:16,23 --> 01:02:23,38
a very important driver. Yeah I was just
going to say what I think you were talking

786
01:02:23,39 --> 01:02:29,20
about is the externalities of the production
and there are many countries around

787
01:02:29,21 --> 01:02:35,59
the world that calculate the
pollution that. Coal and other.

788
01:02:37,16 --> 01:02:43,53
Greenhouse gas producers into the
into the cost and and so there is no

789
01:02:43,79 --> 01:02:45,46
basic cost when you have

790
01:02:45,47 --> 01:02:49,34
a regulatory framework that
says the damage you do is also

791
01:02:49,35 --> 01:02:55,85
a cost so I think that if I understood
right that you were that's getting at

792
01:02:56,17 --> 01:03:02,25
but my own I have one slight point and one
is like QUESTION And the point what the

793
01:03:02,26 --> 01:03:06,57
point was about the people on the other
side of the mountains although we we

794
01:03:06,58 --> 01:03:12,07
shouldn't characterize or
caricature them if they took

795
01:03:12,08 --> 01:03:17,97
a little history lesson they would look
back to before John Lindsay and some of the

796
01:03:18,23 --> 01:03:22,16
people of the sixty's in the seventy's
they could look back very easily to the

797
01:03:22,17 --> 01:03:23,80
period of the one nine hundred twenty S.

798
01:03:24,08 --> 01:03:28,44
And thirty's and people like different pin
show and George Norris who were among

799
01:03:28,75 --> 01:03:34,90
the key proponents surprisingly in Democratic
administration of Franklin Roosevelt

800
01:03:35,19 --> 01:03:41,86
Republicans were they were among the key
proponents of rural electrification and

801
01:03:41,99 --> 01:03:42,27
that's

802
01:03:42,28 --> 01:03:46,60
a history that they don't know or don't
remember don't want to remember so I think

803
01:03:46,61 --> 01:03:47,61
in terms of having

804
01:03:47,62 --> 01:03:54,32
a public relations strategy that history
lesson would be helpful to those people.

805
01:03:55,79 --> 01:03:57,41
And I'm not just saying that because I'm

806
01:03:57,42 --> 01:04:04,05
a historian. Said the second
the second point was to make

807
01:04:04,06 --> 01:04:10,80
a distinction between transmission and
distribution lines if I understand correctly

808
01:04:11,04 --> 01:04:14,43
this also involves a matter
of regulation if you have got

809
01:04:14,44 --> 01:04:18,88
a when plant somewhere out in the middle
of Kansas yes you have to build it's not

810
01:04:18,89 --> 01:04:23,82
a distribution line it's a transmission
line but it's a short transmission line to

811
01:04:23,83 --> 01:04:26,00
a national. Or to

812
01:04:26,01 --> 01:04:30,78
a big transmission line so when it gets to
the big transmission line it's not like

813
01:04:30,79 --> 01:04:31,88
you've got to build

814
01:04:32,18 --> 01:04:37,38
a line from Wyoming all the way to New York
or all the way somewhere else they can

815
01:04:37,39 --> 01:04:42,26
use the existing transmission lines
or it's a question and this is

816
01:04:42,27 --> 01:04:43,73
a question or it's

817
01:04:43,74 --> 01:04:48,74
a question of passing the appropriate
regulation that allows open access and this

818
01:04:48,75 --> 01:04:54,43
is what they do in oil pipelines and gas
pipelines it's common all around the world

819
01:04:54,61 --> 01:05:01,47
to have one company own the actual
stanchions or the actual pipe but the

820
01:05:01,48 --> 01:05:08,37
laws permit. Everyone to use it and not to
be gouged for the fact that they use it

821
01:05:08,38 --> 01:05:13,60
as long as they just capacity so I think
we're we're you know we should. I think

822
01:05:13,61 --> 01:05:18,77
what you're saying is we shouldn't
overexaggerate the need to build pylons is just

823
01:05:18,81 --> 01:05:25,36
getting solar and wind wind energy
from the source to the main

824
01:05:25,37 --> 01:05:30,94
transition time I Am I hitting the right
direction there I wish you were honestly

825
01:05:30,95 --> 01:05:36,13
because it would make my case easier in
some cases all you have to do is create

826
01:05:36,14 --> 01:05:40,07
what's called the connector
line from your wind farm to

827
01:05:40,08 --> 01:05:43,37
a transmission line distribution lines
actually happened at the other end they

828
01:05:43,38 --> 01:05:48,14
happened from the transmission lines of the
House to our job whatever but. And that

829
01:05:48,15 --> 01:05:53,45
is for example the meridian way wind farm
in cloud County was cited very close to

830
01:05:53,46 --> 01:05:57,41
an existing transmission
line which made it

831
01:05:57,42 --> 01:06:02,81
a lot cheaper for it to go forward if
you're talking about opening up major new

832
01:06:02,82 --> 01:06:06,73
areas to when development rural areas
where there aren't necessarily those

833
01:06:06,74 --> 01:06:10,78
transmission lines you're going to have
to build new transmission lines so there

834
01:06:10,79 --> 01:06:11,54
really is

835
01:06:11,55 --> 01:06:18,05
a long range transmission challenge that
we can't duck it's part of the I think

836
01:06:18,19 --> 01:06:23,90
development of a twenty first century
power generating infrastructure Yeah just

837
01:06:23,91 --> 01:06:29,07
a quick follow up if there
were. Transmission lines is it

838
01:06:29,08 --> 01:06:32,48
a question of technical ability
to carry them or is it

839
01:06:32,49 --> 01:06:38,74
a question of regulatory changes first
there is an open access requirement by the

840
01:06:38,75 --> 01:06:42,86
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission in
terms of getting on to that transmission

841
01:06:42,87 --> 01:06:45,52
like a transmission lines
have a maximum capacity and

842
01:06:45,53 --> 01:06:48,27
a lot of them are already maxed out
that's right a lot of the Chalo it's

843
01:06:48,28 --> 01:06:49,02
a dual part it's

844
01:06:49,03 --> 01:06:54,30
a dual problem but part of it is regulatory
and part of it is technical if I'm

845
01:06:54,68 --> 01:07:01,09
saving myself yet OK my comment and
question because we follow this

846
01:07:01,10 --> 01:07:07,73
gentleman's in terms of transmission
lines. I understand that there

847
01:07:07,77 --> 01:07:08,34
is

848
01:07:09,19 --> 01:07:15,95
a very long process for
siting and permitting new

849
01:07:15,96 --> 01:07:22,37
transmission lines I've heard numbers
and. Eight to twelve years for that.

850
01:07:26,05 --> 01:07:26,28
But

851
01:07:26,29 --> 01:07:33,40
a year ago I was driving from
Austin across west Texas and

852
01:07:33,41 --> 01:07:39,37
was quite impressed by the number
of. Wind turbines I saw out there

853
01:07:40,09 --> 01:07:46,97
and as I traveled along
the freeway it was. You

854
01:07:46,98 --> 01:07:53,84
know speculating on the amount of space
available in the median of the freeway

855
01:07:54,24 --> 01:07:57,88
that is already dedicated to

856
01:07:58,37 --> 01:08:03,34
a purpose and is not going to be used for
anything else what's the possibility of

857
01:08:03,38 --> 01:08:09,47
siting transmission lines along over
right of way well you often see I was

858
01:08:10,38 --> 01:08:15,35
driving through much of Nevada last week
and many of the larger transmission lines

859
01:08:15,36 --> 01:08:19,27
actually do parallel they're not necessarily
in the median strip but they parallel

860
01:08:20,03 --> 01:08:24,72
highways and gas pipelines and other
transmission corridors so there is

861
01:08:24,73 --> 01:08:31,33
a possibility to aggregate those different.
Transmission resources I'm not sure

862
01:08:31,58 --> 01:08:36,00
you're going to gain too much by literally
putting those stanchions in the median

863
01:08:36,20 --> 01:08:39,82
but. Very well it's

864
01:08:39,83 --> 01:08:46,69
a very costly enterprise. So I think
with two more questions well while

865
01:08:46,70 --> 01:08:51,81
I've been standing here for three other
issues have come up I'm very lucky I think

866
01:08:51,82 --> 01:08:56,59
in most cases to be bi coastal this day
these days seven live in Redmond eight

867
01:08:56,60 --> 01:09:00,68
months of the year and then four months
on Block Island Rhode Island and I know

868
01:09:00,69 --> 01:09:06,32
Cape Wind very much and so I was going to
start to talk about public process but I

869
01:09:06,54 --> 01:09:13,10
I can't help myself to talk about
cos I think all of us tend to

870
01:09:13,94 --> 01:09:17,25
those of us that have consider ourselves
Green long before it was P.C.

871
01:09:18,11 --> 01:09:23,41
We like to think of ourselves as analytical
logical and we never make decisions

872
01:09:23,42 --> 01:09:28,55
based on emotion and what I have learned
is that even environmentalist's have heart

873
01:09:28,56 --> 01:09:35,53
strings that get pulled and they get to
hold on very often. When we see the picture

874
01:09:35,54 --> 01:09:41,20
of the farmers who obviously are
struggling and it's part of our D.N.A.

875
01:09:41,21 --> 01:09:46,14
And United States about how important farming
is although we are learning what can

876
01:09:46,15 --> 01:09:49,58
be farmed in cities and. I'm

877
01:09:49,59 --> 01:09:55,97
a real believer these days in generating
as much energy where we use it so we don't

878
01:09:56,04 --> 01:10:02,58
need those big installations but
I think there's no discussion

879
01:10:02,59 --> 01:10:08,99
about the farmer that gets paid you
know that the comment was well it gets

880
01:10:09,00 --> 01:10:14,91
paid to the annuity by the developer
in reality the developer is making

881
01:10:14,96 --> 01:10:21,77
a tremendous return on investment that
farmers really being paid by rates that are

882
01:10:21,77 --> 01:10:28,44
raised regular rate payers so I I don't
think it's as forthcoming I mean it sounds

883
01:10:28,45 --> 01:10:33,39
like there's somebody out there but in
reality that developer is getting the P.T.C.

884
01:10:33,98 --> 01:10:39,51
There's the it's the developers are not in
this business for altruism they're in to

885
01:10:39,52 --> 01:10:44,43
make money and you know I would question
the costs you know much more about Cape

886
01:10:44,44 --> 01:10:48,100
land but when other renewables are available
in the United States at eleven cents

887
01:10:49,01 --> 01:10:54,44
or twelve cents Cape Wind at eighteen
point nine or deep water when that I know

888
01:10:54,45 --> 01:10:55,86
really really well and I have

889
01:10:55,87 --> 01:11:00,17
a piece of property on Block Island if
you'd like to buy it and look at its sixty

890
01:11:00,18 --> 01:11:06,22
five storey turbot it's at two miles
so how big is the thumb but you know.

891
01:11:07,63 --> 01:11:09,08
I use the analogy I was

892
01:11:09,09 --> 01:11:13,93
a former elected official and Dennis knows
my track record so I was very green and

893
01:11:13,94 --> 01:11:18,65
it's very hard to oppose offshore
wind but I feel like I have

894
01:11:18,69 --> 01:11:25,26
a lot more knowledge and facts to
the question is going to be about

895
01:11:25,55 --> 01:11:31,53
his comment about who really is paying for
renewables and I think that it's very

896
01:11:31,54 --> 01:11:34,58
different from based on the
technology and I did want to ask

897
01:11:34,59 --> 01:11:41,53
a question about public process
because in the northwest. In

898
01:11:41,54 --> 01:11:43,63
the northwest we believe in

899
01:11:43,64 --> 01:11:50,12
a public process but when it comes to
renewables in the siting of renewables the

900
01:11:50,13 --> 01:11:52,29
process is really as

901
01:11:52,33 --> 01:11:59,10
a person who's been trying to be involved
in is very complex it is very exclusive

902
01:11:59,73 --> 01:12:06,41
you have to hire utility attorneys
and experts to make the case.

903
01:12:07,96 --> 01:12:08,75
And I'd like

904
01:12:08,76 --> 01:12:14,97
a reflection on is public process really
serving the public. And the common good

905
01:12:15,50 --> 01:12:20,74
and about the costs about who's really
paying in to what extent you know when we

906
01:12:20,75 --> 01:12:27,68
first got recycled paper we were all
willing to pay ten percent more OK

907
01:12:28,33 --> 01:12:32,51
but I got the idea you want to pay one
hundred percent more right well as I've said

908
01:12:32,52 --> 01:12:38,89
I think wind power is significantly cheaper
than other energy technologies so we're

909
01:12:38,90 --> 01:12:40,38
not talking about

910
01:12:40,39 --> 01:12:44,94
a fantastically expensive technology
offshore wind is more expensive one of the

911
01:12:44,95 --> 01:12:48,83
reasons that I was very interested in
traveling across much of the nation was to

912
01:12:48,84 --> 01:12:53,66
see wind power developed in areas where
it really is almost this cheap as natural

913
01:12:53,67 --> 01:12:59,01
gas and when I started out natural gas
was more expensive it was in fact was

914
01:12:59,02 --> 01:13:03,67
cheaper than natural gas so I don't think
that there is some boondoggle there going

915
01:13:03,68 --> 01:13:07,68
on we're looking at hard headed
business people who are going to make

916
01:13:07,69 --> 01:13:11,14
a responsible decision about whether
they build a wind farm or build

917
01:13:11,15 --> 01:13:15,45
a gas fired power plant and many of them
are opting for wind not because it's some

918
01:13:15,46 --> 01:13:19,67
hugely profitable energy enterprise but
because there might be some marginal

919
01:13:19,68 --> 01:13:21,63
benefit to their developing

920
01:13:21,64 --> 01:13:25,54
a wind project I frankly don't see anything
wrong with that in terms of public

921
01:13:25,55 --> 01:13:31,73
process. I'm not quite sure what your point
is one of the problems with the Cape

922
01:13:31,74 --> 01:13:37,88
Wind problem project was the public process
has gone on now for eleven years it's

923
01:13:37,89 --> 01:13:40,44
not as if there's been a lack of
public process there it's been

924
01:13:40,45 --> 01:13:46,12
a painstaking process of review and then
revision and then review and then revision

925
01:13:46,16 --> 01:13:50,62
and finally there at the end of that road
but seventeen different federal and state

926
01:13:50,63 --> 01:13:55,39
agencies were involved in reviewing that
project and there were endless public

927
01:13:55,40 --> 01:14:02,14
meetings believe me on the subject but so
this one more coming thank you thank you

928
01:14:02,15 --> 01:14:08,50
all for listening to this. My question
is. Do you think there's any connection

929
01:14:08,73 --> 01:14:13,97
between the fact that when power prices
were pushing down according to something I

930
01:14:13,98 --> 01:14:20,81
read the conventional electric crisis
in Texas and in Colorado and that

931
01:14:21,73 --> 01:14:27,34
natural gas prices just went boom dropped
at about the same time that Congress was

932
01:14:27,34 --> 01:14:30,89
starting to talk about renewing the wind
tax credits with this kind of competition

933
01:14:30,91 --> 01:14:35,06
being set up I think there is there was
some and I paranoid or was there collusion

934
01:14:35,33 --> 01:14:41,90
you know with natural gas to try and and
predatory price down and keep the credits

935
01:14:41,90 --> 01:14:48,67
were coming my gut says that natural
gas is becoming cheaper because

936
01:14:48,68 --> 01:14:54,03
fracking is so poorly regulated so if
there are environmental externalities

937
01:14:54,22 --> 01:14:58,37
associated with natural gas we're not paying
them yet so I think that's part of the

938
01:14:58,38 --> 01:15:03,60
deal where the business sector is way ahead
of the regulatory process and we're not

939
01:15:03,61 --> 01:15:07,77
yet really looking very seriously at what
the full consequences are of natural gas

940
01:15:07,78 --> 01:15:14,62
development I don't think it's collusion
I think it's regulatory lag so

941
01:15:14,63 --> 01:15:17,70
thank you all very much
for your time thank.